Ep. 14 - 👉 Police Retirement, Financial Stress & Identity: Why Officers Feel Trapped in the Job

speaker-1: I wanted to talk about the, don't know if training class is the right thing to call it, but the struggle well today. I just went to that and ⁓ I got back to work yesterday. I filled full of just stories, the little things I learned and, and, ⁓ the takeaways were incredible. It, you know, I've to some other wellness stuff and I came back feeling like really Like, I'm a new man. I feel light. I feel good. This one, I came back and I was like more reflective and more like, ⁓ shit. There's some work I got to do. And not in the bad way, but one of them why this is so timely is because I'm in that window for retirement. the financial piece is huge. I just, I just to go and I'll figure it out. Am I mentally prepared? on the, on the identity part, I feel like I've been working on that. I don't feel like I'm, have like super cop, feelings inside, but I don't know that I know, once I'm not, ⁓ chief more, all that, like, what is that really going to feel like? The other takeaway was my freaking social circle is, let me count it, carry the one, zero. Like I got no friends, and I feel good with that because family's huge for me. ⁓ go to work and we talk, we have a lot of deep, good conversations at work, but.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-2: What happens when you lose that? You have to be so intentional.

speaker-1: I know. yeah,

speaker-2: It was a great class. took it maybe two years ago now. It was pretty fresh. It's a new program to me. And I think I wrote on your socials yesterday, great class, but I think it would be worth going again. Because the first time I left, the first time I went not knowing what to expect, and I don't know that I was fully invested in it while I was there. And then I left and I was like, that was pretty good. And now I think maybe I should do it again. Before I leave, before I retire, it might be a good way to sort of cap off.

speaker-1: Yep, you'd have a lot to offer, especially in that, ⁓ well, we'll We'll see how this podcast. You know, I like that. Maybe I think he does, but we'll we'll see. With that said, we got with us today, Mark Roberts, a public safety professional, 25 years of experience. And he is also the founder ⁓ of Shift a financial education and resource hub for first responders ⁓ helping first responders understand pension and retirement benefits, which seems simple, but I think is probably a lot more confusing as I kind of dig into it myself. But he's helping first responders make informed financial decisions and prepare for life after the job. financial confidence is a critical part of overall wellness and career longevity in public safety. usually I send a guest intake form to everybody just to kind of get, the direction the episode will go. And we try to just have the the conversation be as authentic and non scripted as possible. But one of the things I noticed you wrote and it said, let me see, I wrote it down here. You said that you sat with this question and that was How do you describe yourself right now outside the job? So take away the first responder, take away, shift, change, give us a into who Mark is. ⁓

speaker-2: You're taking it all away. Yeah, I think I'm like most people. I'm trying to still figure that out. I I tell people all the time, as retirement approaches, I'm trying to figure out what I want to do when I grow up. so right now, I think what's most important to me, and I think what's most visible to me is I've got two daughters. One's getting ready. She's looking at colleges. And the other one is getting ready to start high school. it's not lost on me that those years are very short. And so, and you hear the stats like. Uh, you're going to see your kids 70 % of the time your entire life before they're age 18. And all of a sudden that started to feel a little more real. So yeah, I've got a wife at home and two kids and my retired canine partner. so, you know, I've got like everything about a white picket fence right now. It feels like, but, as far as identity goes, man, it's, shaped by everything. It's hard to, I don't, I don't know that it's fair to say, uh, take out your public safety work, take out shift change, take out, you know, it's really. It's all a bit of everything, isn't it? And I think that's one of the things that actually I'm seeing and confronting and talking to all these other people about is, ⁓ what your identity? It's a great question because like you just said, you're you're sort of ⁓ looking retirement and that's somewhat near future and ⁓ you're big is your circle? What do you have for hobbies? I you're doing this clearly, but, ⁓ are going to lose that identity? That's a that's tough road, I think, for a lot of people.

speaker-1: Yeah, and who knows? mean, that's the thing. It's a crap shoot. You don't know how you will react or feel until you get there. So you're a girl dad then. I am. You're in a room full of girl dads. Yeah. Yep.

speaker-2: too.

speaker-0: Yep. Two same. My oldest is graduating. All right. In June. Number two is a sophomore and right in it. And I agree. You hear those numbers 70 % before the age of 18. And I'm like, ⁓

speaker-2: Just ahead of me. ⁓ Well, I mean, think about it. you know, my, even when they, my oldest daughter started driving and all of sudden she's just, she doesn't need you anymore. She's totally capable. She's got her own, cause you're in her car. She goes to where she wants to go. mean, occasionally she makes you feel like she needs you for a second, but it's usually financially related and not much else.

speaker-0: Right. then, you know, go along with the identity aspect of it. Yeah, You're still the dad and they still need you. ⁓ Air quotes. ⁓ they don't. And so that you're kind of retiring, not retiring, but you're separating from that aspect. it's ⁓ a win. ⁓

speaker-2: ⁓ absolutely. know, what's the point of raising kids, right? To prepare them to go out on their own. Right. Love to keep them forever, but I'll be happy to see them sort of spread their own wings and figure their own thing out.

speaker-0: Exactly, I agree with that.

speaker-1: Yeah, or you could do it how we did it. I've got a 21 year old and then an eight year old. 25 years, give or take.

speaker-2: I went to the academy in 02. So what's that 24? And I worked, you know, as a reserve through college for a couple of years. So all in, if you were to count the days, probably be about 25.

speaker-1: when did light go on and say hey finance, ⁓ finance stuff, ⁓ obviously huge part of ⁓ where was turning point that you like, ⁓ this is important and I wanna lead people, through this process.

speaker-2: back in, I think it was 18, 2018, could have been 17, 18. I wanted to look into making a retirement change for the agency that I work for. And because the state agency, it's not as easy as just asking for a change or negotiating a change. It required a law change. And so, I sought out an opportunity to change our retirement from kind of a complicated one with an age restriction and a number of years into a straight 20 year retirement. And so the last 20 year retirement in state government ended in 1984. And so went through the legislative process, some sponsorship, got a ton of help from a ton of people and ended up ⁓ getting a law passed and funded to change our retirement 20 years. And through that process, in order to be effective at all, I had to become very, very familiar with MainePERS. And I built some great relationships and made some contacts at MainePERS where I was able to really pick their brains and understand the process from their side and made that law happen and then got it funded and... as a result became this sort of de facto expert that can also talk to police officers. And I think one of the biggest failures that happens in the whole system and in folks managing their own finances and their pension and understanding and decision making is that when they call main purses, Mainpress doesn't really understand what they're asking because cops don't speak normal language and normal people don't speak cop language. And so there needs to be this interpreter in the middle. And I found myself doing that, helping people ask the right questions so that they get the answers they were looking for. And it just sort of snowballed. And then I was talking to people about issues with their retirement and their plans and sort of what shortcomings there were. I identified a real gap in my opinion about life insurance. The pension system that most folks rent in Maine does not provide the death benefit I think that people believe they have. And so I started talking to people about that and then identifying those who needed it and then got my insurance license because there was nobody when I needed life insurance and I figured I didn't know who to call. And so, and I didn't really trust anybody. Most of us don't trust anybody. didn't know who to call. I ended up just sort of going through somebody that I heard of, and then. decided, well, this is silly. I should just get my license and I can help people. So I went and got my insurance licenses and started helping people that way. And then I felt like I was doing a disservice if I wasn't really understanding what their financial needs were. And so I started getting deep into conversations about, ⁓ really finding insurance that was relevant for that person. And in doing so I got real involved in personal finance. And with that decided, well, there's also a need there. People don't know who to talk to on that. outside either. And I had a great friend who's a mentor to me works in personal finance ⁓ and ⁓ went and opened his own firm and it sort of gave me a chance at that point to see if I could actually make it so. went and took my series 65, which is a investment advisor rep license test and passed that and surprised this guy with it. Say, Hey, by the way, I just got licensed. So if you could go ahead and hold my license, that'd be great. And so, yeah, that kind of started the finance side. the reality was my peers didn't understand their own pension and didn't understand the opportunities that are out there and myself included. And I look back 25 years ago when I first started, I don't know about you guys, but my field training officer was like, yeah, I do this thing. And I went to town hall and I signed the paperwork and that was it. And there was no conversation. There was no discussion. There was no forward thinking. There was no planning. And I feel like that sort of took away from me and a lot of my peers, the real choice to be deliberate about how they manage real money and how they plan for retirement. And it wasn't anybody's fault. was just the way it was. And I didn't ask the right questions. And so I think there's a huge gap there and somebody's got to fill it. My job's funny now. I'm joking. I you know what I do. I tell people I'm third responder. It's all, everything's over by time I get there. I'm just, it's after the fact. I'm not really helping anybody anymore. I mean, sort of, we still find bad guys and arrest them. But on the day to day, there's no community policing. There's no outreach. There's no interactions. We don't have school resource officers who are making these connections in the community. And with that, I just wasn't sure how much of a difference I was making anymore. And you're talking about identity, think most people that get in law enforcement or into the fire service in some way, it's silly as it sounds, want to help people. And you do for a very long time. but I felt like I wasn't anymore. And so this was a path that I could really help people and help people that, that are in my circle, people that I know, people that I think trust me, and vice versa. I don't think they're trying to get one over on me. ⁓ And so all a sudden, ⁓ like anything, it snowballed. The more I help people, the more I talk to them, the more interesting it became, and the more I wanted to know because I want to do it well. I don't want to be somebody that's... spreading bad information. And so it just goes on and on and on and on.

speaker-1: Yeah, I had this this morning that I I that this episode could be something that. An FTO could listen to or even just say, hey, listen to this, 45 minute podcast, it's going to shed some light on, what you need to do ⁓ or what you should do, you said it perfectly. You know, I remember signing the paperwork. HR, I we didn't have HR when I started in the town I work in, was like, just sign this, ⁓ for your retirement. That was it. There was no real good solid explanation. We what we heard because it was in the union contract ⁓ I have that there be so many things in the field training process, especially in wellness. ⁓ this being one of those ⁓

speaker-0: I think it's paramount. think these new officers ⁓ to manage ⁓ money. I'm in the same boat. started in Connecticut in 2007. And it was exactly that. mean, same story. ⁓ this. ⁓

speaker-2: Yeah, we were in a hurry to go drive fast and back. We really cared about the rest. I don't know about you guys, but I never even thought about transitioning out of law enforcement down the road because that wasn't even remotely close to the front of mind. I was going to do that forever. now looking back, I realized this isn't really a forever job. I mean, it could be, and some people make it that way. But I think what becomes most important is this should be an occupation of choice.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-2: And I'm sure you both know people that are at the end and I use air quotes that stay and it's not because they want to it's because they have to have to. Yes. And you know, that loss of control of your own destiny, of your own decision making authority.

speaker-0: They feel they have.

speaker-2: Really really takes a toll on people think about are they the best version of themselves when they're coming to work every day? But they don't really want to be there right are they the best version of themselves when they're picking up the overtime job because They're a little tapped out this month. know you want folks coming to work that want to be there that are not completely out of their mind stressed about all this other stuff in their life. Because the stressors in our personal lives compound on the stressors of being a police officer. They're not separate and above or totally different. They all build on each other. It's a stacking effect. And that's, you can, if you can maybe take one of those stacks away, I already had the game. Yeah.

speaker-1: It's dangerous. If you don't really want to be there, If you're not in it with ⁓ your heart and soul, that can be dangerous. what the trouble spots? is it is it at the beginning of a career? Is it mid-career? Is it at the end where people are saying, ⁓ I screwed up? what do do? ⁓

speaker-2: Yeah, I think that there's a real lack of awareness. I mean, I don't think anything's changed for the folks that are relatively new. And so the folks that are recognizing, hey, it's time to make a change, are already trying to make big changes in their lives. So small changes aren't super effective. there, I teach these classes and I go and I have folks do reviews. I never really understood that reviews did matter after classes, by the way, until you build your own class and you really need feedback to actually make improvements. But I get this feedback and folks that are kind enough to leave ⁓ comments, every single class, maybe but one or two small exceptions all say, I wish somebody had talked to me about this when I first started. because time is your friend. And if you're just getting into managing your finances or planning for the future when you've only got two or three years left, that's a tough spot to be in. It's hard to make up that kind of time. And again, I think most folks in this profession are very used to being and comfortable being in control. You're in control of every situation you go to. You're in control of ⁓ own destiny at work most days. But for answering calls for service, you get to decide where you're going and when you're going there. ⁓ you fix problems. Maybe not long term, but you fix problems. so that control over your own decision making because you can't afford to do something or you do things because you have to ⁓ really unsettling for a lot of people. I mean, I've been there. We've all been through times, I think in our lives, most people anyway, who you're like, maybe I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to ⁓ all the expenses I want to cover this month. ⁓ it's not a comfortable feeling. Not even close.

speaker-0: Nope, not at all.

speaker-1: finances It's the silent thing that we can't see, like we can't check in on your brother or sister, ⁓ you'll have no clue. that's where it's sneaky, that sneaky one that, really ⁓ causes a lot a lot of stress.

speaker-2: And how private our finances people don't want to talk about money and culturally you don't ask people with I mean, we're at a unique spot because our everybody knows our wages were generally contract workers. It's not hard to figure out. But in the you don't walk to your neighbor's house and say, Hey, what you make last year, right? At least not happening. And so it's a weird thing to check in about it. And money is funny. It's very emotional. And it's a great source of pride and a great source of shame. Money is one of those things that people are super, super private about. Understandably so. I think we're sort of judged by ourselves and our society on how much money we have or don't have. And so it's easy to understand how people don't want to talk about it.

speaker-1: One of the things you ⁓ wrote, wellness isn't about rich.

speaker-2: No, not at all.

speaker-1: So what does that mean when you say that?

speaker-2: It's not about being rich because rich people are very unhappy all the time. mean, let's be honest. For me, financial wellness is about freedom. It's about the freedom to choose to do what you want, when you want to do it, how you want to do it. And that measure is entirely different for everyone. There are some folks who need very little and they want to live quietly in a small place away from everybody and have just enough to cover their very basic expenses. Other people want to travel or want to own multiple properties or want to have expensive things. And so it's a moving target depending on what your own priorities are. But the reality is if you can choose what you want and attain it, that's that financial stability and wellness that I think we all sort of crave. It's a great book. It's called Psychology and Money. It's a super easy read. A guy named Morgan Housel wrote it. I read it years ago and I've read it a couple of times since. And there's all kinds of information that I just think is it's really interesting. It's not a it's because it's not really a finance book. It's not a psychology book. It's just a conversation about how money and our lives interact with each other. And he defines it. I actually printed it, put it on my wall. It's a quote essentially that says, every financial decision he makes now is for the purpose of being able to do what he wants, when he wants, without having to think about how much it costs. And to me, I think it's just a great definition of being prepared in a way that when you want to go do something, you don't have to upset your entire life to try and accomplish it. But. Be realistic, think is also true. mean, I kind of want to yacht and live in the Mediterranean, but that's probably not a realistic goal.

speaker-1: ⁓ you're that FTO and you're sitting there and you're like, Let's take a minute. Let's talk about wellness. Specifically, about, finances. what's the advice that you would, you would offer in that moment?

speaker-2: man, it's a couple easy things, right? The first is know what you have and create a budget. I mean, it's that simple. How many times or how many folks have you seen over the years that they just spend every penny they have and then they spend on for a few days until the next check comes and then they do it all over again. And when they're short, they pick up over time. But if you're building your life around what your actual cashflow is, what the actual in, what that number is and what you're spending off those can actually be sort of compatible with each other. It just makes everything a lot easier. Second, pay yourself first. Start early. When you sign up for your pension, you probably, I don't know of a single community in Maine that doesn't have a 457B option for their folks. start early. I mean, if you automatically distribute money or it comes out of your paycheck and goes straight into that investment account, You never have to see it. You never think about it. And over the course of 25 years, it adds up fast. I use it in one of my presentations. I have a slide. It's talking about compound interest and how that works. Hopefully somebody doesn't check my math on this, but it's ballpark. Yeah, I think if you put aside $265 every two weeks for 25 years and it grows in the market at 8%, which is a pretty typical third year average, you know, you have $500,000 in the bank. and you only deposited 175 or so. And so where else can you get that opportunity? And then when you get your pension, which is only half or two thirds of your paycheck, if you have another $500,000 sitting there available to you, that could probably make a little bit of a difference on your ability to enjoy. So it's those simple things, know, pay yourself first, have a budget, don't overspend.

speaker-0: Absolutely.

speaker-2: Know where your money goes. Yeah. I mean, I ask people all the time, do you guys have a budget? A couple of hands will come up. Who pays the bills? You or spouse or you don't know, you just whatever. And most people have very little idea of what's going on with their money.

speaker-1: Yeah. I remember, they're hitting a point where I was like, okay, it's time to dial it in. And, talk about disorganized

speaker-2: Nobody has to be an expert. Yeah, let's be honest. It's you know, the money coming in the money going out. That's not super hard. mean nowadays if you use credit card to pay up for everything you can put your credit card statement in AI and it'll tell you where you have your money. You don't have to do it yourself. Yeah. Again, it's it's it's being aware. It's understanding what your limitations are. It's being responsible. I liken it to ⁓ losing weight. I know how to lose weight. Everybody in the room probably knows how to lose weight. It's not It's not easy, but it's simple. Eat less, work more. That's how you lose weight. Money's the same way. it's not to necessarily save money because we have wants and we want to spend money on things. But it's pretty simple. ⁓ Save more than you spend. That's it. It's a pretty equation. ⁓

speaker-0: think a lot of people get that, and I know I've had it, the fear of it, it's like, there's a lot of numbers, not a numbers guy. When I was a personal trainer, I said, we do three sets of 10, because that's how I can count. I've got 10 fingers, can go one, two, three, and still talk to you while you're lifting. ⁓ So I recently got a years ago and started to take over my own finances and it was like, I had papers everywhere. had no clue what was going left, what was going right, and where things were coming. Adding into the retirement component of it, I was lost and I was scared. Not until recently, I started grabbing hold and like, I broke it down exactly like you said, this is simple. It's common math. Don't spend more than you bring in. I know how much money I have to spend and ⁓ where I'm at. And it feels good. I'm still running things tight. It's a tight ship, but that's where I'm at right now. But I see where I'm going to be even by the end of the I'm like, this is going to feel good. ⁓ it's empowering.

speaker-2: It is. And so you just talk about sort of where you're to be the end of the year. You know, I talk about smart goals, setting smart goals, these things that are simple and measurable and articulable and realistic and timely. You know, if you have debt, you want to pay off. you need to identify what that total number is and how to get there. And it's not, yeah, I've got $10,000 of credit card debt. I'm gonna pay that off by the end of the year. It's, yeah, I've got $10,000 of credit card debt and I'm gonna set aside $200 every paycheck between now and then because that'll get me there. It's the illusion that I can make up for that later. Well, in the meantime, something else pops up and you know, some other offer comes in from your buddy for a golf trip or whatever the thing is. And we all want to do those things. And I'm as guilty as the next person and occasionally be like, I'll pay that back another day. Every time I pay my bills, I write them down on a piece of paper for whatever reason. That's what allows me to really understand where things are going. And I think that's it's terrifying because those months where you're like, Ooh, that number is not the one I was hoping for. That's a negative, not a positive. That doesn't feel great, but you have to know where you're at. It's, know, Yogi Berra said, if you don't know where you're going, you'll end up someplace else. ⁓ And it's that's exactly true.

speaker-0: Yeah, I write it in my calendar so I see it where I'm at every week. and that's where my finances are and I can look at it, open up, I know what I have to do and then I just turn the page and there's my week and I know where I'm at for my budget and yes, pen and paper, I need to see it. ⁓ All the apps are but I'm a pen and paper guy.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think there's a connection there, right? Mind to the pen. I say, it's those traps. And you said it, like the golf, well, let's go out to dinner. and then you're spending a little bit more than you had planned. And sometimes I feel bad because I'm like, hey, let's get something for lunch. And I'm saying this because I know I have X amount set aside for lunch for the week, but does everybody else? And then it's, then I'm saying it they're like, ⁓ they feel obligated maybe. ⁓ so you know what has happened a lot of times? ⁓ I buy it all. And then I'm like, well, should I wasn't expecting, you know, so it's a, the trap works in a lot of ways. And it's like, I just bring your own lunch and we can all still sit together and eat and enjoy that. again, that point of these little traps that are every day and they're, they're small, but they, they.

speaker-2: up. Oh, they absolutely do. On a side note, are you hiring? That should be part of the recruiting poster chief purchased by chief purchase lunch six days a week.

speaker-1: Okay.

speaker-0: Accepting applique.

speaker-2: Yeah, I know that the traps are everywhere and you have to be aware. And a lot of that is just building in that excess and building in the extra. And guess what? If you don't spend your extra that week, where does it go? Yeah. Right now. So you've saved a little or you've got a little extra for the golf thing or whatever. And it's nobody likes a budget. It's miserable. I don't like it. I don't want to do it. But I also, I, my eyes on the prize. And when I retire, I want to be able to have the freedom to do what I want, what I want. Now I'm going to work and I'm going to scale the business and I've got all kinds of plans and ton of irons in the fire that are moving right now. ⁓ but ultimately I don't want to work forever. Right. Right. I want to, I want to live the life I want to live. It's, not easy. Yeah. And cops were in a funny spot, right? We make really good money. Ish. Like we make great money to have nice vehicles and live in a nice home and, be in the neighborhood we want and go to dinner. That's my, you know, my wife and I, we love to eat out. That's our thing, as you can see. costs a lot of money. Yeah. ⁓ But.

speaker-0: Right.

speaker-2: It's a, I hate to use the word priority, but dinner's a priority for us, but it's just, it's, it's a way for us to blow off steam and get out. It's just, just the two of us, right? We don't have to kind of all the other noise goes away and, ⁓ that's what we do, but it's easy to be like, you know, let's go out again. ⁓ let's, let's grab another round. Let's do whatever. then I see, know, you're like, Ooh, that's stung. I didn't want to do that. And again, we make very good money, certainly compared to what I think we were making 25 years ago.

speaker-1: Yep. true. Yeah. ⁓ Billy and I have talked sometimes you get in that, in that rut. I think I said this yesterday. Can I make it another couple of years in this damn profession? Billy, I don't want to speak for you ⁓ but, you're at that point where you're like, I don't, I don't know how much more I have, in me on the job. So let's say he's got years in the system. How does that work? in emperors, You just wait and collect it down the road like you would.

speaker-2: Right. Yeah. If you don't specific to that question, if you don't fulfill the plan requirements, meaning I don't know what you guys are in, but say it says you've got to work 25 years to get your special pension or any pension at 25 and you don't work it, you essentially back out of the program and you could leave the money there and collect it at your normal retirement age, which right now is probably 62 or five for most. Right. ⁓ And it just sits there. you can also take your contributions and interests. You can reinvest it yourself. ⁓ So there are options, but it's definitely not as simple as, I did 15, I would have been eligible at 25. So in 10 years, I'm going to grab it. Now you're going to wait until your normal retirement age, and you're going to lose any special benefits you got, meaning. If you guys are on a two thirds plan, you go down to 2 % a year instead of two and two thirds percent a year that you earned, right? Or if you're in a 20 year plan at 50%, which is, you guys doing that? Yeah, that's it. Let's go. So you're really earning two and a half percent a year because 20 times two and a half is 50%. But if you leave before the 20, you go back down to the 2 % a year. So you lose some of that extra benefit. And those are the things that people need to be aware of when they make those decisions. Now, having said that, if they were in the, in the 47 earlier, if they were a contributor to the own IRA, if they have their own investment accounts, ⁓ that I think buys a little bit of freedom for folks because now the pension is a benefit and it's a bonus, but it's not necessarily everything. And so like anything having options and having different revenue streams, if you want to call them that, is a good way to make sure that you're in a position where you can make decisions that you want to make. talk about the three legged stool approach where people are like, ⁓ you gotta have a three legged stool. ⁓ You know, have social security and I'll have a pension and I'll have my own investments or I'll have another job or whatever the thing is that sort of builds that stool for you to sit on and ⁓ be comfortable retirement. what's a one-legged stool? It's a bike without a seat and that's not real comfortable. So if you can sort of bring in a few other things to help prop you up, it's always going to help. But yeah, it's those mid-career decisions where you're in that low spot. I mean, I remember personally, I think I had eight years left at my current agency when I wasn't sure I could make it. Not even, I was like, there's no way, no way can do it. and I was counting the hours and I was counting the days and I was really wondering. I felt very trapped because I make enough money where it was going to be really difficult for me to replace that income immediately somewhere else. And boy, that's not a good feeling. Right. It's just not right. So.

speaker-1: So, ⁓ emperors, what are those things? what could you offer, that somebody's listening to that that maybe maybe we don't understand or or we misunderstand

speaker-2: Oh, where to start? is a handful of things. I one of those is that you have to do all your time. You have to get to the end, right? Or you have to do 25 years so that you can collect without an early reduction penalty. If you collect your pension before you're eligible, the state side of that. the state side and the participating local district side, although they both live at main powers are actually totally different. function in lot of the same ways, but a lot of the rules are also different. So it's hard to speak in full generalities. But one of those things is life insurance. If you die while you're working, but not in a line of duty now, if you... get sick and die or you have a boating accident at a bachelor party or whatever the thing is, the death benefit is not great. It certainly doesn't replace your income. so folks with little kids or people that they rely on them, I really encourage them to understand fully what that death benefit is and if it replaced their income and then go find another way to fill that if you have to. The other thing is, changing from one agency to another. think people generally on the PLD side, like if you're staying at, a local PD and you move to the next town over or to the next county, ⁓ that time is ⁓ generally meaning they kind of speak to each other. It doesn't really screw you up. Your benefit ⁓ might a little bit if one plan is different than the other. Your accrual rates are a little different, generally portable. ⁓ If leave your participant local district and you go to a state agency, like something else could be a trooper, ⁓ those don't necessarily speak the we think they do. And so ⁓ you can convert from one to the other, but it's usually very expensive. so these before you move from one place to another, you have to call main purses. You have to get a really clear understanding of. ⁓ how that decision is going to impact your long-term plan and your long-term ability to retire on time. What else is out there? That's a kind of a misconception. I mean, those are the big ones. Change in agency is not understanding the impact, not understanding what your benefits are while you're there, not understanding what that long-term plan should look like. But even with all that, like, yeah, those are things I'd be aware of and be afraid of, or, you know, make sure that you understand before you make any changes. But I think the big takeaway for me with folks that are in manpower is it's a great benefit. You know, the pensions went away a very long time ago for most people. folks are in a 20 year plan and they're retiring at 41 years old, 42 years old, even if that pay is only half of what you're getting before.

speaker-0: Right.

speaker-2: What an incredible safety net. You can go and do anything and fail pretty miserably and still probably be okay for the short term, right? And so it's a huge opportunity. I, folks that are mid-career, that are struggling, that are looking to leave, ⁓ I would discourage someone from chasing their dreams for sure, but you have to really understand the pieces that are coming together or falling apart depending on your decisions. ⁓

speaker-1: So you you brought it up again and I wanted to go, cause you said it earlier, the death benefit. this has come up a few times recently and I don't think understands and it's an important one,

speaker-2: Yeah, it's funny. That's actually, we talked earlier about the retirement change in the legislature that I was working on. was actually one of the things that... the catalyst for me to make that change or to try and pursue it because a co-worker of mine was sick at cancer And I'm gonna ruin the story. So ⁓ Please whoever the story. I apologize, but ⁓ essentially ⁓ didn't individual life insurance. He ⁓ continued working long as he could when he was sick with terminal cancer because he didn't want his wife to lose the group life insurance came from the state ⁓ and That's terrible thing ⁓ Why should have to stay somewhere for that? That's terrible. I hated it hear it. And that's kind of what started a lot of change. anyway, round numbers, I think if you have just a spouse, that's a, you know, just a spouse, no kids, think the ordinary death benefit right now is less than $700 a month. And I don't know a lot of people that only make $700 a month, but it's not a lot. And then for each child you have, that number goes up by another, I think, five or $600. So, you know, a spouse and one child, you're probably in the neighborhood of, what did I say, $1,100, $1,200 a month. Still not a lot of money, right? $1,100, $1,200 bucks. And then that portion of your child drops off when they're no longer either in school or over 18. And so that money becomes pretty small. So I encourage people always get term life insurance. People are Dave Ramsey fans or Robert Kiyosaki fans, but term life is the one that's that, it's just a term. It ends after a certain amount of time, but it's usually very affordable. So if you're pension eligible in 15 years, you should probably get a 15 year policy, right? That's kind of the bare minimum. And you should get enough to replace your income pretty comfortably. And as long as you're healthy and you're young enough and whatever, it's generally affordable. Now there are folks that can't that, but it's always worth asking. know, a million dollar policy for a 30 year old is next to nothing. And, uh, absolutely worth it. And so it's an easy way out. And then some folks are interested in life insurance after they retire so they can take more of their pension. I guess that's another piece, you know, you asked about sort of what do people understand or not understand about main purses is that we talk about our benefit. Oh, it's going to be 50 % of my top three years. Well yeah, that's only 50 % of your top three years if you don't share it with anybody. So if you have a beneficiary, if you want your spouse to be able to collect your pension after you die, then you have to choose one of the other eight options. And those other eight options are all less monthly money because they're taking on the risk of paying a pension to two people, not just one, or for the life of two people. And so... If you're planning to the dollar, like, I need a $50,000 pension, so I'm gonna make $100,000 for my last three years, you're gonna get your benefits estimate three months before you retire, and the numbers aren't gonna be what you expected them to be. And so you have to know that... It's not as simple as the full benefit, which is all we hear about. That's what the calculator says, right? Oh, I get two thirds. That's $66,667. I'm good to go. Like, only if you don't want to share it with someone. And if your spouse is 10 years younger than you, guess what? It's going to sting. They're going to take a chunk. And so you need to understand what that's going to look like. that's, again, when you're 22, 23, 25 years old, this is your first real job. You're not thinking about that.

speaker-0: Not even close.

speaker-1: No, that's a good point. I think for all of us, it's just scratching the surface of information. It's just the 50 % or the 230, whatever it is. And nobody ever gets any deeper than that.

speaker-2: And every time someone figures it out from your agency, they're on the doorstep of retirement and they leave and they're never looking back. They don't teach anybody what they learned and if they did, it's probably wrong. it's a vicious cycle. Soon as people figure it out, they're gone. And then the next person has to it out on their own too. it's an interesting conversation and it's one that's just so important and overlooked. Yeah, it's hard to get into the details, it gets complicated real fast.

speaker-1: retire, rehire. has become huge, huge movement, I guess, I, I don't know that it's great. I don't know enough about it. So I've created this in my mind, ⁓ it's time for them go ⁓ time for them to move on, you know, and I'm definitely that, I, and I gotta be fair because I, You know, always hear like, oh, you've been in law enforcement for 40 years. I'm like, oh, that's probably, 15 years too long. I don't know. I don't know the person, but yeah. And then, here they go. They come back, and everybody wants to do it because it's like the lottery, now you got your, you're getting your pension and now you're getting your salary. And is that good for the system?

speaker-2: It'd your time. A lot of questions there, all in one there. Yeah, I know. First off, let me just say, you talked about traps earlier. It's a trap, right? All of a sudden, you've got somebody making 150 % of their pay. And what are they doing with it? They're spending 148 of it. And then when it is time to actually retire, now they've got to replace not only their regular income, but all that extra that they've been spending on top of it. So I think the retiree hire stuff is a great benefit for folks that want it. And ⁓ as long as they are appropriately segmenting that income so that it doesn't surprise them when the window closes. ⁓ know, philosophically, do I think it's a great idea? I think there are people that absolutely are doing it and are great cops, are great firefighters and they're taking advantage of a program that's available because it's hard to find good people now. And so I love it for those folks. I really do. as long as folks don't fall into the trap that it creates and they're not necessarily extending beyond their window, I guess would be the right way to put it. like you said, folks, you're never going to ⁓ force folks to leave who to stay there ⁓ and who are doing a job and love the work. But does it create an environment where people that ⁓ are forced to stay are more so? And I don't, I guess I don't know the answer to that. I don't know. I mean, in most places, I think, are putting guardrails on it. They cap it at five years or three years. Maybe they'll give you a year extension or not. There are agencies that are doing like a 30 year max participation, meaning if their retirement eligibility date is at 25. They can do retiree hire, but you can hit once you enter the program. You have to leave at the year 30. So you can do it for five years or you can do it for two years if you don't elect until you're 28 or you can do whatever. You know, maybe that solves the problem. I don't know.

speaker-1: my reasoning is you get somebody that stays there forever and then you get young people that now because of the union contract, right, they can't move up in seniority. so they get stuck. Midnight shift, evenings, whatever, because you've got these senior guys that are taking up these these spots. They don't want to leave. And they retire and stay. then, then I think that's that point when the younger officers like, well.

speaker-2: Right.

speaker-1: I could go somewhere else and start all over. That sucks. I could stay here and just stay stuck or I could just get out altogether. And that might be the whole reason the damn retiree hire started because it's, it's a kind of a catch 22. It's a tough situation on both, on both sides, balancing that out.

speaker-0: think it gives that officer that retires, you get in the best of both worlds. And personally, I don't think it's fair to the new kid on the block to have to go, oh wait, he's retiring and I don't get to bump up.

speaker-2: Yeah, my thought is there

speaker-0: Retire? You're retiring, you're out. You're down at the bottom of the barrel again. You get to, if you're gonna rehire.

speaker-1: I kind of see it that way too. There's gotta be a middle ground, but I kind of see it that way. You wanna stay around? All right, that's great. we're gonna let the other people grow. I don't know that unions ⁓ or a shop steward didn't see it that way. I was one of two once, so.

speaker-0: That's where the two rams

speaker-1: You know, it's first on vacations, all these things that, know, so it's, it's interesting. and I don't know if you, you know this or not, but retire, rehire, what does that do to the system? I mean, does that put the system in flux at all at some point,

speaker-2: In theory, so if it were a true hole in the system, yes, absolutely. And so to combat that, ⁓ and I trust that the actuaries haven't figured out, ⁓ when you're in a position, so say I rehire and I'm occupying a position that would otherwise have a new employee paying into the system, ⁓ there's what's called the unfunded actuarial liability. and it's 5 % of your earnings are paid into main purrs. Now, they don't care who pays it as long as it shows up. So it could be the employee, it could be the employer. And that 5 % that now gets sent to main purrs is designed to continue to fund the system so that it's funded enough to pay everybody's pensions over time. And in some ways, it may help the system. I don't know the numbers behind it. I'm certainly not an actuary. But you know, that person that's retired and it's still paying a 5%, they're not going to collect a new pension later on. So they may actually be sort of helping to bolster the foundation of the, of the program. it may also just be a purely breakeven point. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but ⁓ it or is, I shouldn't say it definitely doesn't. It's definitely designed to not create a liability. So that has to be paid for through that process. I think I land in the middle on it. I do. think I can see it from both sides. I think it's easy for me to be neutral because it's not an option for me to. So we just don't have it at my agency. So I don't have to be committed one way or the other. And I can see from the employee's perspective, hey, I'm, I'm doing this agency a favor. I'm keeping my institutional knowledge here. I'm still contributing, I'm still a field training officer, I still bring value. And from the agency's perspective on the benefit, they could retire and go to the next agency and you lose all of that. Now granted, you have the opportunity to move up, but hiring I think is tricky right now. And I think it's difficult to find good employees and it's... cumbersome and expensive and you have a long You know lead time and then you're gonna send the Academy and then you have to do all these things And you're maybe kicking the can down the road a little bit But if it's a good fit and the person is a good asset to your organization, I don't see it as all bad.

speaker-1: I absolutely agree. Yeah, but the only thing is that, sometimes you have to work in that set of rules where you have to look at the, the young guy who's still a hard charger at 40, you like you said, 41, who's still got, you know, 10 years of just let's go, you know, let's do this versus the same, you know, maybe the same guy who just absolutely doesn't and maybe is more toxic.

speaker-2: However,

speaker-1: You know, so it's.

speaker-2: Right. when that person leaves, yeah. And it becomes super difficult. I'm sure there's liability if you're like, yeah, you can do that. Yeah, that's not going to work out too well.

speaker-0: You just want to leave. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nope. Sign here.

speaker-1: You can't, right? Exactly. ⁓ that I think that's the thing, ⁓ kind of you were to is that ⁓ places should have their set. This is how it is. Right. And just kind of agree of like, if you're going to retire, you hire. This is how it's going to be. That way you don't have that case by case basis and get yourself, know.

speaker-2: I like the guardrails. I think the timeframes are reasonable, but like anything, there's always exceptions. Right? So you can't replace it three years and that person is is truly a continuing asset. And now you're forcing them out. Now granted they chose, so it's not, it's not really being forced, but it's, it is so gray. It's impossible for me to have a real position on it. I should go into politics.

speaker-1: Well, don't do it later. You almost can't. mean, you almost can't have a I mean, you can talk about it, debate it and think what you know what we kind of but.

speaker-2: I'm in such a good spot sitting here too, because I'm not in charge of anybody. I don't have to manage an organization. I'm not either.

speaker-1: Technically.

speaker-2: Yeah, it's tricky. Tricky would be the word I would use.

speaker-1: a lot of good points here I want to think I'm doing right as far as getting those new officers, hey, do this, there's this, there's that, you know, that deferred complex, just put five bucks in it, it doesn't matter. And you try to say that and, it looks like it sinking in, but I don't know if it ever does.

speaker-2: Well, you know, I know a guy who runs an organization that actually does new employee training, just put that out there.

speaker-1: Yeah, well, I think we're gonna we're gonna we're get into that. If somebody who's listening to this, if they're in if they're at a point right now where they're they're like. This resonates, they're feeling overwhelmed, they got some financial shit going on, what's what's the first step for them?

speaker-2: There's a ton of resources out there. think the step ⁓ is it's like ⁓ change. ⁓ You to ⁓ acknowledge there's a ⁓ And you have to willing to be honest with yourself. ⁓ It's very easy to I don't want think about that. I'm going to ignore it. I'm going to pay the minimums. I'm going to work an overtime shift. It's going to be fine. until you find yourself in a real bad spot. I mean, really truly being honest with yourself and putting it all on paper and going from there because you can't fix a problem you can't define. And that's true for every part of our lives. If you don't know the problem and it's not defined, you will never find a solution. I firmly believe that. I'll use myself as an example. A couple of years ago, I was like, man, we're overspending. I don't know what's going on. And I think my like food budget or what, I have a bunch of categories. I'm not a great budget or truthfully, it's pretty loose, but I have a handful of big categories. One of them was food and I don't break it down to groceries or dining or anything. I literally just do food. And my number was 50 % of the actual spend. Right. And so all of sudden I took, I looked at three months of spending and I went out. Well, that's it's that simple, right? And so I had to do two things, spend a little less and adjust the budget. I was like, all right, well, maybe I'm over calculating something else and try to figure out the numbers. And it wasn't it wasn't that far off. It was just a matter of being aware and saying to myself, you know what? And I'll do this occasionally. If I feel like things are maybe spiraling a little bit, I will just decide this month for this 30 day stretch, I'm going to keep track.

speaker-0: I'm proud.

speaker-2: And I don't keep track all the time, but that 30 days I will. And guess what? It almost always reveals what the problem is. And it almost always self solves because when I'm keeping track, I'm also not overspending. Right? You're like, ⁓ I'm 15 days in and I'm at 80 % of the budget. Maybe it's time to just dial it back a little.

speaker-0: It's exactly like keeping a food diary. Yes. When you put down your dietary, no, says, hey, you need to write down everything you eat in the week. Guess what? All right. I guess I'm not eating those Doritos. I don't want to write it down. Yes. just keeps you.

speaker-2: You honest yourself. So yeah, first start, man, figure out where you are. You have to know where you're standing. It's the only way. mean, you can't, it's like, uh, I'm sure there's some hunters listening, right? And what do they tell you when you take your hunter safety class when you're 16, bring a compass with you? Cause otherwise she's going to walk in circles and never get out of the woods. So it's truly that simple. It's just impossible to know where you're going. If you don't know where you're standing. Um, and then from there, it's about being disciplined. And what's funny about cops.

speaker-0: Right.

speaker-2: too specifically and I'll pull in all public safety folks, know, dispatch and fire and anybody else that's related to the profession. Even our least disciplined people, I think are innately very disciplined because you're showing up to a job that many days is very difficult. And you're showing up the day after that day that was very difficult, even when you don't want to write and that's discipline. you're able to go to the academy and show up there and just, you know, just, just live it even when you don't want to. And you're, you're willing to do hard things because you recognize there's a purpose. And if your goal is I want to be comfortable and I want to not feel so stressed about money. It's as simple as being a little bit disciplined. And we are at such an advantage to the general population, think, in that way. I really do.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's awesome. This has been great.

speaker-0: Yeah, that really does hit. I appreciate that.

speaker-2: I just think it's this true. I think there's two things ⁓ and maybe, one is little self-serving so I can just tell everybody how great I am. ⁓ But the one is not, really, but the other one, ⁓ is just this link that I think is really important for people to understand when you feel out of control with your money, you feel out of control with every aspect of your life. your decision making is 100 % predicated on your ability to finance whatever the decision is from as simple as do I pack a lunch or do I buy a lunch to all the way up to do I stay in this job? or do I go somewhere else? And that's a huge decision. And if it's based on finance, it's not based on your actual desires. It's not based on what you really want. You're completely handcuffed by this elephant in the room that says, hey, you can't take a $3 an hour pay cut. You just can't do it. And that's a tough spot for people to be in. We only want people, think, working in our organizations and partnering with us that really want to be there. Nobody wants to be with that person that's just so trapped. And you can see it on their face. You can see it in their, ⁓ every they take. ⁓ if a boss and you're reading their reports, you know who's interested and you know who's not. ⁓ And I think the other thing is ⁓ generally, it's somewhat money related, but it's really not. We touched on when we first started, and it's that I think most people in this line of work are incredibly purpose-driven, but it can't be your only purpose. And I think you have to find something else that fuels you because it's so easy to get lost in this public safety role and so easy to identify as. the law enforcement officer, the firefighter, the EMS provider, whatever the thing is. And in doing so, when you have a bad day, when you have that downtime in your career, mean, think about your careers over the years. They've had highs and they've had lows, right? And when you're at a low and you don't feel like you have any other purpose and there's nothing else driving you, it's really, really difficult to move on. And so for me, I was in a tough spot in my career, no doubt about it. When I got into this like side business, which is becoming less of a side business and more really part of that purpose that drives me to keep doing all the stuff. And truthfully, dealing with the, doing the financial education, talking to people who need help, referring them to people that I trust to be financial advisors or wealth managers or help them make these really, really important decisions in their lives has actually made me better at my full-time law enforcement job because all of a sudden it's no longer the daily grind that I'm forced to do. I'm choosing to be there. I'm choosing to go and, solve these like fire related problems. went to a case yesterday and I was one of the guys that was there from the municipality that was up. He started laughing. He's like, I don't think I've seen you this excited about work and forever. And it's because I'm not, choosing to be there now, not forced to be here. And so I think when you have multiple things that give you purpose, that drive you. to be better and to help others, I think you become better at both. Because on a bad day, you can focus your energy on the one that fuels you a little better that day, right? And then vice versa. And so I encourage people to just find what that purpose is. And it's hard and it comes by accident and it is rarely planned, I think. But when you put yourself out there and you're open to opportunities and you're open to those conversations with people that don't work at your local agency, that aren't necessarily in your circle, all of a sudden you kind of open up to this whole other world that's out there. I I started as a cop when I was 21 years old. I knew nothing different. And my kids are really what forced me to meet other people and be involved with their activities and realize that the rest of the world just lives differently. there's this whole other world exists outside. of our circle in public safety, which is always seeing the worst. And then we reflect with each other on the worst. But if you have multiple pathways that give you purpose on any bad day, you've got an outlet that also sort of encourages you to keep moving. And that I think is so important. That's awesome.

speaker-1: That was good. ⁓ Where can we find you? Where people find you if they have questions, they to dig deeper from conversation?

speaker-2: Easiest way is probably the website shift change dot me. So shift change just the way it sounds and then dot me not calm and You know, it's got a bunch of contact info. You can grab my email there reach out to me Folks locally. It's funny. My phone rings all the time Hey, Joe gave me your number. All right I heard from Sue and she told me to reach out to you and I encourage folks call me email me reach out I love talking to folks. I love answering questions If I can help you, If I can't, can usually point you to somebody else that can help you. But I really do encourage people to be in touch. Like I the website's got a bunch of background info if you're trying to figure out who I am. And that's the best way to get me.

speaker-1: I'll put a link in the show notes for that and one last thing on what you said it's it's interesting because people kind of pass the number along and I think that speaks to your character and who you are because you you let me give this information. I'll give it to officers and it's people I trust right right I'm gonna guide them to people that I trust and it sounds like you're that person for a lot of people Thanks lot, man. I appreciate this. This was great. we'll sign off here. And as always, I'll tell everyone, stay safe ⁓ and budget.

speaker-2: Oof, nobody likes that word. Thanks for having me guys. I appreciate it.