Gossip Destroys Trust | Leadership, Wellness & Police Culture

Billy: I was listening to Mel Robbins podcast and they're talking about friendships and 20 years ago we are now behind. the average young person and I'm going to classify us in young, maybe not a thousand hours less ⁓ a year. So 1000 hours of less a year, young people are spending with their friends.

Elliott: What is it? A KMA-

Billy: I heard the 20 years ago, young people, I'm, I'm guessing that range. didn't, you know, I didn't get too deep into the podcast, but that timeframe, young adult, a thousand hours, less a year. It's about 25 weeks, less a year you spend with friends or relationships outside of work.

Elliott: Wow, what is that? Just due to technology?

Billy: Yeah. And I think, and, one thing that led up to that was like, the mental health aspect of it. Yeah. Does social relationships that we build are now diminished so much. So that, man, I was like, well, there's our reason. I mean, yes, we knew like what it was that's causing how much the phones are taken away from us, the social media is taking away from us and that it's affecting our. mental health, the, that social component is very important to our wellness as we've talked about before. And it, but it was just a, to somebody, for somebody to actually put a number on it, I guess, was more of a eye opener for me. I mean, we knew it's present. know it's there just for somebody to actually put it out there and say a thousand hours a year. Yep. And that was like, That's a lot and it's busy, know, so you're so coming off of that busy component. It's like, when, when do we have time to fit all of the stuff in to create healthy habits? And it's not just exercise and nutrition. It's the stuff too.

Elliott: Hey, speaking of healthy habits, we helped out the local school district on their wellness day. was their keynote speaker and that was an honor. It just really, just a cool thing to be asked to do that and to be able to deliver on it. I was freaking nervous. Dude, I told you, I've gotten in front of classrooms, And taught classes, room filled with police chiefs, police officers, and I can talk. can feel it. But a middle school, sixth grade through eighth grade, and I was dude shaking. I was shaking and I prepared and yeah, I got, I really got in my head about the little keynote. I just wanted it to be good. And I wanted to be able to make sure that I, I could speak to the age group. And, ⁓ and so that was a real challenge for me, but I wanted to say thank you because. I brought you in I was like, I'm going to need some help here. And I thought that maybe an interactive piece, I guess, would be really helpful. And you did the breath work and it was awesome. The point I wanted to make is that breath work we did in the middle of that speech of the speech helped me get through the second piece of it. I was like, ⁓ of course you breathe. feel much better. You're calmer. But I kind of saw it in action and I just, I was like, ⁓ man, that was so cool.

Billy: Same thing. I had those same nerves. As soon as you said, want to introduce one of our officers and my heart just went and I was like, okay, here we go. Yeah. We had stands on either side of us. So it was like, you're in the arena. Yeah. You weren't sitting on stage. You weren't in front of everybody. So it's a little different as far as the perspective goes. Yeah. ⁓ but as far as the breath work went, it was great. The impact, the reception, I guess I should say the reception that we got from it. You know, we were talking about self care, kindness and uplifting others, right? Yep. So the taking care of yourself part before you help others. That's the important part. We're talking about it, not being selfish to take care of yourself, as long as you're taking care of yourself to help others. Right. We went into breath work on it and I went off with the belly breathing and the lion's breath, which not many have seen it, but we've had a few see it in action. When somebody tells you to take a deep breath and you fill up your chest and that. constricts everything. It makes you a little bit more excited and actually works against the, Hey, take a deep breath. actually tightens everything up and makes you more excited. the breathing into the belly through your nose, filling that belly up first really gets you to relax your shoulders. Doesn't put any pressure on your chest, holding it, taking a little sip, top it off. And then as Andrew Heberman says, it's a physiological sigh. You look at doing that and that resets you and gets you in a little better place. to step back and how I related that to the kids was conflict. When you're in conflict with friends, peers, family members, whether it's siblings or parents, you always react. And I think we've talked about this too before. Sometimes we just react and we don't want to react, but it just happens. So when you have good communication and understanding of each other and people know about these obstacles and like, Hey, we've got a tool on our toolbox. It's the belly breath of the lion's breath. I need to take that belly breath as well, whether you do it together or give yourself some space and just, settles the nerves. You do that a couple of times in a row. It really feels good.

Elliott: And the kids got right into it too, when they did it to hear the whole gym doing that, it just hit perfect. Just something as simple as breathing, which we take for granted because we do it. Definitely a learning experience in the way that I was like just checking in on myself. I was like, damn, I did not expect to be.

Billy: Right. Right. Yeah.

Elliott: Reacting that way, you know, like I said most of it is because I just wanted I just wanted to deliver for them And I don't I didn't really know How it came off, you know if it was alright, but I got a nice message From one of the parents and his daughter had mentioned to him that it was a it was pretty good She got some good takeaways from it. So that's it. I always say just one person. It's not what it is Just just one person was there

Billy: So, ⁓ you know, from watching it, being an observer of it and participating in it as well. You did see the little bit of the shift after the breath work. Yep. Your first portion was tight. It looked, sounded great, but then after the breathing, you did, you were just, you were you and you nailed it. It was cool.

Elliott: Bro, I was up there and I was like, my hand was up. I was like, what am I doing right now? And I was like, all right, I'm feeling it. I was like, I'm in the zone. I was like, I'm just, I'm just going to go with it.

Billy: You're feeling it. You're in the moment and it was awesome. So I think it was cool and it was definitely cool to hear about the parent. That's yeah. Yeah. Hey, my kid. Yep. So loved it.

Elliott: Yeah, that was was cool. That was cool. I'm glad to have had the opportunity.

Billy: What we opened up with as far as the thousand hours go with friends is when we're with people and this goes for work and friendship relationships. So that minimal amount of time. So two hours, one hour, zero hours a month is when we're spending with other people. So it's very limited, right? What are we doing with that time? What do we talk about during that time? What kind of value is there? And I believe what's kind of disheartening. I would say is some of that time goes to gossip.

Elliott: Yeah.

Billy: Right. Yeah. So when we have that limited amount of interaction, why do we always start with gossip or why do we always lean into the gossip and rumor aspect of it instead of more of the deeper, more meaningful conversations? So if we know our window is that limited, why do we go to that route? And what is it? These rumors, these gossip, where's, where does it come from and how does it motivate?

Elliott: Gossip had such an impact on me, such a poor impact on me, that when I took over as chief, I'll never forget my first little chief speech, here's how it's gonna be, my core values, blah, blah. There was a part about gossip because it was just so toxic. I remember reading an article and it was in the Harvard Business Review and it talked about coaches, sports coaches, different people's styles, a little bit about emotional intelligence, but also about gossip being a form of incompetence. And when I read it, really made sense to me. It's damaging. It's hurtful. It's fake. Oftentimes lies. And I don't know what it is that makes it so juicy and feeling good to be in the know. And, know, you can also tell those people that they get some information and they're just dying to get out there and be like, here's what I heard. Here's what I heard. And it goes to that same feeling I have of like dig deeper, not even on the gossip part, but just like on the job or in life or whatever, just dig deeper. Don't just go beyond the surface level, learn more about things. Right. You know, and I, and I'm going to Jack this up, but in one of the, do is two articles in Harvard Business View. And one of them, one of them was that whatever you hear, your brain accepts it as truth. Automatically, it just accepts it. And whether you go revisit that to say, okay, what did I just hear? Is there any chance that this is all bullshit? Right. Is what I just heard real, right? And sometimes that filter works faster than other times. And that's kind of goes back to the last little podcast I did. And decision-making, it's because it's important to me. It's like, take a minute, decide, just breathe for a minute and filter out the bad and keep the good. And so, yeah, so your brain takes in the words. And then it's up to you at some point to say, okay, this doesn't make sense. What's real, what isn't and process it. We don't do a good job at that. Maybe I'm just over-generizing.

Billy: And I think culture has a lot to do with it. True. And you know, like what you said early on toxicity existed and, know, to some level it's still, it still exists everywhere, but I think people are more vocal about. I don't know if I should say vocal. It's a, it's a two part. So vocal about their thoughts and their true thoughts. they're, they're willing to call bullshit on things more now. they're also a little bit more reserved in what they say. and they're using that filter. I think they're using that filter a little better now. I from my point of view, I do remember, you know, when I started, were like, Hey, car to car shit, keep it light. What's our business is our business. Nobody else needs to know about it. Cause that's how we break down what's inside the walls. We need to build these walls back up. Yeah. And, know, doesn't mean you don't care about who you're talking to car to car, but juicy details. Same thing. You're to go over to, know, talk outside your friend circle and, you know, be caustic. No, you're not. It's not, it doesn't, doesn't help the environment. So sometimes it's a matter of just putting your hands up and being like, Hey, outside of my wheelhouse, I don't want to know.

Elliott: Yeah. Gossip is rumors. Basically, you know, it's right. in the one in the same. Trust is a big thing, you know, especially within teams. And I think that the gossip and the rumors, I think eats away at, at trust. And sometimes that, I mean, that's all you have, right? I mean, you don't necessarily have to like the person, but to a degree we have to trust, you know, we're going, you know, going on calls, doing things. We have to trust. And, and that's why I just, it seems so simple to gossip, but to overcome, but it isn't. And, and let me be honest, who doesn't like. a juicy piece of gossip. I don't mean, you know, I get it. And people are going to share information and there's some times where like a juicy piece of information isn't, isn't gossip at all. It's, know, you need to know this and it can seem like it, right. But you're getting information and you and I had a really good conversation about kind of being that trap door. And one of the things that I kind of pride myself on is And I shouldn't pride myself on because it's a requirement of the job is when I hear something, when somebody tells me something, you got to lock it away. And I can tell you that I've had the feeling that you just have this information and sometimes you need to get it out. And I don't know why that is, but there is definitely this feeling of like, I have this information and I need to just say it. It can be heavy. I think that's why. coaching or therapy or something like that. why it's, that's why it's good. can share these things and how they make you feel and stuff like that. But it's not the road I want to go down today, but, you know, you have to be that trap door. You have to be someone that your officers can trust. So they're going to tell you something and believe me, they are, they are waiting for it to come back to them. They are waiting for it to say, you know what chief or who, know, officer so-and-so.

Billy: why they exist. because you

Elliott: They must have told somebody because you're the only person I told, you know what I mean? Right.

Billy: Yeah. I think from that standpoint and, and, is it, but when it becomes manipulation, I guess is where, where I tend to go, come on. I just got, yeah, I'll say I just got used. And so the trust that you, that is instilled for on you then gets lessened, weakened. Yeah. But then you also. trust that person less because of the manipulation that happened because of it. Right. And it, it might not be something huge. It's just, you know, a simple, simple thing. I've learned to use it for good and go, all right, I'm going to know who I can really put this, know, who's my container, who I need to talk to the therapist ⁓ that I know that's my, that's my container. If I really want to talk, that's who I'm talking to. Right. You know, Jenny, you've got a strong container. Appreciate it. ⁓ but that's, that's what that's meant for, but there's other, other avenues, I guess we're trying to, trying to figure out a good way to go about discussing this appropriately and respectfully.

Elliott: Yeah. And it's so, yeah. So it's interesting. mean, it was go back to the, to the gossip part. Sometimes I'm always like, well, maybe, you know, maybe there's gossip and all that stuff because there's not enough to do. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Just get to work. Why, why are we, you know, and I think also some people just want to be miserable. You know, they live in that world. Maybe they're raised that way. I don't know. And I don't, I don't mean that in a, ⁓

Billy: That's right. I was like, just get to work.

Elliott: I just mean it the way I mean it. heard the way I said it. I mean, maybe they're just raised that way, you know what mean? And they live in a world of whatever. You remember back in the day, like, I would hear family talking. They're talking about other family, right? it's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, oh, your sister did this and that and that. And that family stuff is kind of a little different, but... Is it, you know, I mean, it's, all the same thing. It's either way it's damaging. You know, if you say something and you think that the other, the person receiving the information maybe can have a negative response to it. I don't fucking say it. You know I mean? Like, but I know that's easier said than done. And believe me again, I've gossiped. I started everything I talk about today is because I used to do it. And I just now starting to learn what didn't work. where things weren't going well for me. And so now I can talk about that and maybe some people that are newer in the job can just steer clear of that, you know, and I mean, I hope. I wouldn't have listened, don't think anyway, but you know. ⁓

Billy: And I think it comes from a place and I'll agree with that and I'll take accountability on my part on, on those as well. And it comes from a place of self-improvement, trying to learn more about a yourself and how you're going to manage these situations and how you can teach other people how to manage these situations. it's a, kind of goes back to the selfless thing. I want to help myself to help others. I'm learning how to digest information, how to contain information or separate. And I think that's a, that's a big part to be able to, help others and communicate with them, you know, to, put up that space and go, Hey, I hear what you're saying. I understand. I believe, but I'm good. Yeah. don't, I don't need any more information than you've already given me.

Elliott: Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly true. There was a point in time where I used to just try to say, I'm going to, when, if I hear gossip or some bullshit, I'm going to just say, stop, I don't need to hear this. I don't do that anymore. think I was going over the top a little bit there, you know what saying? But I still, I think, have a little bit, like I said before, a little bit of a better filter where I'm like, okay, let's get through this bullshit moment and whatever they feel they need to say. And sometimes I do call it out. If it's private, and I'm like, what? I don't care about what a department in central Maine is doing and who got in trouble or whatever. Not my problem. It's hard. I wish I had that article to bring up. ⁓ I do have it at my computer at work because I bring it up sometimes just to... Because I loved it. I loved that point that it made to me. It spoke to me. And to say that it's incompetence just was like, that's the message delivered with power because nobody likes to be called incompetent so they don't want to act that way. Because if you are, you're being an idiot. You know what I mean? So thought the message was strong. And, then look, I remember coming into work and you get pass on, right? Cause it's just small, you know, there's no, no shift brief in a small police department. It's just with the, whatever the person working before you decides to share for information. And, and sometimes it would be 20 minutes and 15 of those minutes would be like, Hey, this officer did this or this officer that, know, why do I care? Why do I care? None of that has anything to do. always from another department. None of that has anything to do with my focus, mission, and my job here at this department.

Billy: How I need to prepare for my day. Yeah. No bearing.

Elliott: Zero. And then one of the things I think kept bothering me about it is how it made me feel. I would get amped up. ⁓ man, they did this. ⁓ wow. That's horrible. Man, you know, we need to be better than that. And now like I'm having a response to a bunch of bullshit.

Billy: That had no direct correlation to you zero nothing

Elliott: You know, so it's like, I don't know, that's just, ⁓ it's just so toxic. And I know it still happens. I, know, I keep my circle pretty small. try to stay away from it, but it's also, I'm only human. So when you get a piece of gossip, sometimes it's juicy to hear. Yeah. You know, ⁓ and I think it's important. Yeah. You know, information's out there. Sometimes there's information that you need to share and it feels like gossip and it might not be. It's good to know that, Hey, there's a, you know, like, you know, what the big one is, is, there's a job opening. You know what mean? Like, it feels whatever, but no, there's a job opening. It's when you get into the other part of like, this is what happened. This is why there is a job opening. Don't care. Not my problem. How much do they pay? Should I apply? You know what I mean? that's, that's. Yeah. And, um, and again, I know that that's hard, but that's what we should be doing. You know, focus on the facts. Just like the old, right? Old drag net, just the facts. And,

Billy: Keep it

Elliott: And that doesn't mean we can't have emotion and great conversations. There are still deep conversations, I don't know, man. Gossip is for the birds, you know?

Billy: Yeah. The juiciness of it, guess it's the, you know, dangling the carrot. Yeah. And you just gotta, I'm just saying, we should be our vegetables. Absolutely. Hallelujah. I do find the struggle in that. And I think I, and I'm going to say it's, it's come a long way since, since I started and even, know, a short amount of time. When did I start? 22. So four years. Yep. That's a good, we've had a really good swing of change. Yeah. years. Yeah. Very, very good. So I will. I will give credit where credit is due. And I think we've all done a great job at doing that. And I want to say, know, regionally and statewide altogether, it's been a good, good push in that direction. Yes, it still exists. Yeah. But I think we're getting less of the, we call the juicy details, getting some of it. You know what I wonder.

Elliott: Everybody wants to shit on the new generation of cops. ⁓ they don't work overtime. They don't want to this. They don't want to do that. And I'm just saying this. I don't know that there's anything to back this, but are they also not as interested in the bullshit? You know what mean? That's a, that was interesting.

Billy: Yeah. I, man, I think that's a good way to look at it and. Don't want to parrot, yeah, I'm going to echo that. It could be, cause I do. I like that a lot of, know, a lot of, you know, quote unquote old timers was taking all the overtime because none of the young guys take it. Good for them. Good for them. You know what that also means? They're living within their means. They don't need the overtime. The overtime is nice.

Elliott: Right. Yep. The balance. We've talked about having that balance.

Billy: So I guess where does that balance apply to everything else? And so that's a good topic to bring up.

Elliott: I have a bias. I don't know where it comes from. And maybe it's just my own personal story, but I am, ⁓ I'm biased. like the new, I like the new generation. I understand that everything's a little bit different and, you know, we generalize them of, you know, the, again, the no overtime, the way, but. And it's fresh ideas, man. It's just been stale. It's just been stale for quite a while. And I'm not blaming it, you know, cause I always say, ⁓ here's another cop with 40 some odd years on the, on the, on the job. It's time to go, whatever. And I do, I, stick to that. do, I do think, you know, that there are some that should pack it up. You stay too long and it's trouble, you know? ⁓ and that's where some of that old stuff, cause we're in a turning point. You know, because we still have like that old school where I saw more of that gossip and more of that toxicity that still exists. But as we move towards wellness and some of this new way of thinking, I hope that some of that is kind of going away. And the job already comes with a lot of BS. So to not add it to ourselves, salt in the wound type stuff, you know, would be helpful. I guess I'm... I'm somewhat encouraged and I want the young officers. I like to see young officers grow and I'm just hopeful. ⁓ I guess I don't know how to say what is in my head. I'm going to, I'm going to try to say it again. Some old, some old school officers do just need to go. Experiences and everything. There's, there's room for new. We go to college, you go to the academy. They're teaching you what you need to know. Experiences and everything. I had zero. I had zero experience being a chief. I'm not saying I was the best or I'm the best, but I've managed it. I'm coming on a decade. That's too long. I'll say it about myself. That's too long. I'd probably. I'd probably go somewhere else if there was an opportunity or get out if I didn't have to get stale and wait for my pension. Right. Because it happened, you know, things happen for me kind of quick. There are some special people out there that have a ton of experience and they are really good. I can name a bunch and it's great. And those are people that are in high positions that I call often when I need to run something by, you know, but that's definitely not everybody. And sometimes I see those little marks on a uniform, it's going up almost up to their shoulder and I'm like, that's some Star Wars shit. It's time to go, you know? And I know I'm a jerk when I say that. ⁓ It's just my thoughts, you know, it is what it is.

Billy: Yeah. And I see it from a different, concept, but different point of view as why there's so much more to do with your life besides just work. And it doesn't have to just be a cop. I stand on this soap box. You, I mean, I think everybody's heard me say it. Why stay for 20? Why, why are you pushing for that retirement? I get it. But especially here in Maine, that nut isn't that big. Other States, sure. They're making, they're cashing out pretty hard really well in other States. But here you're still getting a piece of the pie. Yeah. Move on, find something that fills you, find something that really fills you with joy and gives you a little bit of passion and that you enjoy going to work where you're not caught up in that, you know, like the gossip or the gripe or the, what the hell, you know, what's going on today? I don't want to do this. ⁓ so I, I look at it as. Yeah, they're great. I love it that they're there to, and I love their experience and their knowledge. think those cogs that just keep turning, they're fantastic because they do keep the boat going in the right direction. But you need the other little ones in to get all the little details and bring all the new nuances in. Cause there might be a little cog out there that comes in that's super refined and it's moving really fast and it's picking up. What the bigger cog isn't, isn't taken care of. And it just moves that ship off in a, in a better direction with less effort. And I think that passing of the buck of the gossip it's yeah, it's fading away. And I think it's going to be even more pleasant as these younger people come in, because they're not going to look at that gossip and see it as fuel. They're going to look at it as we're kind of talking about it now, like, ⁓ okay, cool. Thanks. got nothing to do with me and they're not going to pass it on it's going to die off

Elliott: So I read something that said, leaders can either feed or starve gossip. And I think that's pretty cool. Wow. And if you think about that, I think you'd be able to see that in an agency, you know? Yeah. But it's never going to be perfect. I have certainly tried to starve it.

Billy: And as a chief, kind of have to feed it a little bit to get that a little extra information to go, okay, got it. And if that position opens up in another PD for a reason, and all of a sudden that person's on your oral board for your next position open, you're like, okay, I got a little something.

Elliott: think the key. I think it's communication as usual. They say this every time, but could you still offer the same information and just communicate it in a certain way where it's not like you're trying to screw over a little more professional? guess that's my goal is, is, you know, the, the, newer officers that we have just to steer them to stay away from that as best they can or to communicate it in a way that like you said is professional a professional way to say it not that You know, yeah, you got to hear about this guy this guy screwed up so

Billy: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. This is in high school. We're a profession that is held to a very high standard. need to hold ourselves to that same standard. Yep. And that's across the board, but communication, I'm going to leave off on that, that it's, it still is the tip of the iceberg.

Elliott: Right. Don't gossip that that's if there's something to take away. Don't gossip. There you go. Use that filter. And ⁓ as usual, like we always say.

Billy: Use your filter.

Elliott: Stay safe. All right.