Ep. 11 - From Crisis Intervention to Wellness | Our Department’s Journey in Mental Health Policing

Elliott: Let's talk about how we got into the wellness game. Okay. We did a podcast, what? Probably a year or more ago. this, when this idea was just like a little, a little baby seed and hadn't blossomed yet. it is a good story. This is the Maine responder podcast, real conversations about work, the pressure and the lives shaped by service. There's no single lane here, no script, just honest talk. Let's get into it. So definitely I think worth telling again. Yeah, definitely. It's been a minute, but a good journey. Yeah, yeah. All right, you can hear me all right and everything? I got you, Perfect. what was the weekend like for you? Low key. Trying to think of what we did. Yeah, just ran errands, know, typical. My wife ended up needing a sound bar. So we ran around a little bit and ended up getting a nice bows for the house and ⁓ like a T like for the TV. ⁓ nice. I don't know where that came from. But hey, sometimes when you need it, you need it. That's it. That's it. How about you? Yeah, we can. ⁓ Not bad. We went to one of those water slide park things to kind of get away for the kids it wasn't bad. It was a little bit pandemonium at first and it kind of slowed down and it was, it was great. But, uh, I'm not built for water slides man. reluctantly went down a water slide the first time and I had fun. I just, wasn't thinking it through. So my wallet got soaked. And then, the kids, say, ⁓ my God, it was so much fun. Let's go again. And I was like, all right, well, that wasn't so bad. So I went down a second time. it was like midway through the slide. ⁓ I don't know what happened to my stomach or my brain, but I started getting nauseous and I was like, this needs to end. ⁓ This needs to end. I was like every piece of that little green pukey emoji. And then by the time I had, I struggled getting out of the little raft and it took me probably a good 20 minutes to get back to normal. So it just shows, I don't know age. Yep. Nope. I did the same. ⁓ Last time we went to Disney, the Mrs said, Hey, I tried this ride. It's not that bad. We were upside down. We were sideways backwards. And I just same got off and I'm like, I'm ready to lose breakfast right now. that, it was, ⁓ the eating around the world at Epcot for me instead of ⁓ any crazy rides and you know the joy of Disney World for me is it's a small world nice and easy and brings you to a peaceful place. ⁓ Well, so for those that might not know, although everybody knows Ron, You're one of those guys that everybody knows. But for those that might not know the inner workings here, Ron and I worked together for a long time. So it's popping in because we started the wellness journey together, really. and it didn't start with wellness. I mean, it did in a way, but it was wellness focused and aimed at the community through CIT, which was pretty cool. And that was, and just jump in wherever, because I'll probably miss stuff and get this wrong, but a real turning point in my career. everything during COVID was strange, but policing was strange. was eerie. ⁓ like everything was shut down. ⁓ Nobody was out on the roads. You just didn't know what was happening. ⁓ Very strange for sure. And so- the obvious question got asked and that's how are members of the community doing? are they okay? who's checking on them? what's the status on people? And we didn't really know. ⁓ it was ⁓ a moment in time that is just interesting to reflect back on. Yeah, was ⁓ our entire community. There were no cars on the roads, stores were closed. ⁓ We'd come work and be like, okay, ⁓ what do we got today? And like briefings, we kind of live for them. ⁓ to see what's the latest ⁓ it was one of those things, I think someone had reached out to you and asked about some kids, because we were doing a lot of checks on kids at the request of the schools. And then kind of started from there. ⁓ But one thing that stop, there wasn't many people on the road. but they were still calling about speeding because the few cars that were on the road were doing like 80, think, you cause nobody else was there and it was just like a freedom to do whatever they wanted on the road. So yeah, those didn't stop. don't think those ever will ever will. It was, ⁓ the, the students, ⁓ they weren't in front of those mandated reporters. in a worst case scenario, but they also weren't, you know, just in front of, teachers and, the community can really see what's going on, right. And some people need help more than others. So the silence of it was, was very strange, but so that got us really to think about, crisis intervention team training, because that was, and it remains something that's out there. to an approach towards ⁓ mental health policing, I guess. ⁓ And ⁓ I think a part of our department was trained. many of us had the skill set, but we weren't using it. just another one of those things the light. shined on it because of this situation. ⁓ I like to say, the silver lining around COVID, but I always say it just because there ⁓ you have to of some good that comes, comes out of bad situations. And for us, I think that one of those was this focus and move towards ⁓ this skill set that many of the officers already had through the CIT. ⁓ And as we were talking it, you had mentioned a Netflix, you gotta check out this documentary. Or was HBO, right? HBO, you gotta check out this documentary. And it was Ernie and Joe Crisis Cops. I remember, I was like, all right, I gotta check it out. And I remember starting watching it and it got me almost instantly. And I had to step away from it and then come back to it. But as I was watching it and finishing up, I was like, we need to do this. We need to do exactly what I'm watching on this documentary, but we're a department of, how many did we have at that point? Yeah, six. You know, we were small. We're still small, but we serve with love. I, always come at it from that small ⁓ town policing mindset, ⁓ but. But yeah, so that's what we wanted to do and that's what we wanted to focus on. As a result of that, ⁓ up talking with ⁓ one of the officers that started that unit, Ernie Stevens, who's become ⁓ a friend, ⁓ just an incredible person with an incredible family. And ⁓ that was one of those kind of cool things that came from that. ⁓ became, like I said, we became heavy on the, with the CIT stuff. as we kind of pushed along through that, became more aware, became more knowledgeable on how to, how to focus on this type of policing. It just kind of naturally drove us like inward to say, wow, look at all these things that happened to people and the way that we need to police for them, we have to be a little different. And it just naturally went to like, Hey, what about us? Right. Right. ⁓ And there was other places already focused on this stuff. I just like that it organically happened for us. It wasn't like, hey, we need to do this because everybody else in the world is doing this. It just was like, this makes a lot of sense. Some of this stuff is resonating with me. And I think that kind of is the powerful part about it. It was like, all right, let's go. And that took off, I think, for us. I think the whole thing did. No, definitely. think with the work we did with CIT for the community and the relationships that were built through that journey, ⁓ folks with NAMI Maine, you ⁓ up getting ⁓ some committees ⁓ ended up opening some other doors. you allowed me to ⁓ our ⁓ peer support team, which ended up, just having us ⁓ ultimately look ⁓ At the time, ⁓ not to your business out there, you were pretty vulnerable and sharing with the agency of, ⁓ know, ⁓ you started inward jumping into some therapy and, ⁓ ⁓ doing some amazing that helped us just focus on ourselves. then you did other things scheduling us ⁓ visits ⁓ the doctor. And it was fantastic because ⁓ because of that other were like, I have some trauma, ⁓ from my childhood I have some trauma from the job or ⁓ whatever. And it just allowed to kind of look inward instead of, I think in the old days of police and I've been around 30 plus years, ⁓ I going to, homicides or, you know, really bad calls. ⁓ And administrators were like, kind like ⁓ your ⁓ last episode, your chief check on you ⁓ There's wasn't like that. There's wasn't, you know, touching like, hey, I really care about you. they were like, y'all set, you know, suck it up buttercup type of mentality. So ⁓ from we've really done some amazing things. ⁓ And we're continuing to do it. You know, you ⁓ have ⁓ recognized a couple times throughout the state for your ⁓ leadership wellness. ⁓ A years ago, ⁓ the Association of police ⁓ gave you the Chief of the Year Award. Just literally last week, the Fraternal Order of Police ⁓ you the Leadership Award for your ⁓ and steps that you've taken ⁓ officer wellness and making sure that we're all ⁓ care of. So, you know, it's ⁓ an amazing ride, a great journey. ⁓ you know, we continue to try and improve us. ⁓ You say they gave me an award, but ⁓ I was nominated and I just wonder, I wonder who authored the nomination on that. mean, you know. That was from our team. Thanks for the shout out. Right, right. Our team, you know, as a group and, we ⁓ kind of in this profession, like I said, I've been around a long time work for a lot of different agencies. ⁓ And, you know, when you have leadership that you stand behind, and they stand behind you, and you go to work and enjoy doing the type of policing that we do. It makes it seem like it's not a job, and it just seems like that we're, ⁓ continuing help people at the same time we're helping ourselves. So, ⁓ you know, I've worked for some bad leaders ⁓ the verge corruption, but, ⁓ let others, other supervisors, you know, scream at employees, put down, and just ⁓ make them not want to be part of their team. Now there's agencies ⁓ all around country that, ⁓ that still, you know, kind of act with a bad heart. ⁓ their people are paying for. ⁓ you a good point because I always think like we're not special. We're not doing anything special. And I could, because I could tend to go down, that. Negative road, but it's always because I just want to be better. I just want to be better I just want you know, ⁓ I want to and that's just something that really I think I need to calm down with it But it's so shocking that There are a lot of departments that do Zero right in wellness, ⁓ And then there's some departments do zero in wellness, but they have leadership that cares and and I think that's ⁓ That's still works ⁓ because I think those are the types of leaders that will be open to, maybe a brand new officer saying, hey, can I join peer support? Or can I do one of these things that maybe would be new to the agency, but still forward looking and the right thing to do? ⁓ And sometimes wellness, we think of, is this the, ⁓ newest crave or whatever, you know, the new checkbox for administrators ⁓ to, you know, just say, ⁓ I need a policy for this. I need, this program, just so I'm covered. ⁓ Where, if the leadership like, ⁓ like we have, like, you set the culture at our agency of like, we need to do our job, show up, do work, but also at the same time, make sure that we are taking care of our people. And I definitely know that it shows and our folks are appreciative of it. And a lot of times when we're, at trainings or meetings or whatever, ⁓ we other folks come up and say, I wish, wish my, agency did that they really don't care about my wellness and my well being and they're, they're just trying to ⁓ fill shifts and they don't care really truly care about their people. for me, I think that wellness stuff is always, it's been a leadership thing. I've always loved leadership and talking it and ⁓ trying to improve. And I've had my days that, you know, ⁓ or anything but leadership. when I started to focus on myself and started to think about, What bothers me? What makes me tick? What are those things that, you know, that I'm strong at and that I'm weak at? What are my values? Once I started figuring all that stuff out, it makes it easier to kind of think that way to everyone. even like, you know, we're talking specifically like your department. I think I said it in the last I think I mentioned about my ⁓ chief. that our values were aligned, but I didn't realize that because I didn't really spend time thinking about, who I am and what I truly value, what's important to me. when you start to kind of dial in who you are, it's easier to treat people. with the respect they deserve, even if it's a little bit off ⁓ that they can see okay, I don't agree, but see where he's coming from and that's cool, And again, I don't get that right, all the time. Nobody's perfect and sometimes you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or, you know, you get nauseous from a water slide and, things just aren't the same come Monday morning. But I think that, that's what keeps me. ⁓ That's what gives me the buy-in on the wellness stuff because, a lot of people, maybe I was kind of going through life just like, go to bed, wake up, go to bed, wake up. And you're not just digging a little bit deeper to see like, okay, I'm up. Like, let me make something of this day. Let me learn something about myself. Let me learn something about anything, about you. know, like that's, ⁓ that made the days more fulfilling, I think. I think kind of watching you ⁓ take your own journey, ⁓ that rubs on us, even though a small agency, you have an open door Anyone can come in and sit down and just a conversation with you. ⁓ And ⁓ some agencies aren't like that. ⁓ ⁓ you go into the chief's office or the boss's office ⁓ when an issue. I think style ⁓ has allowed our employees to kind share your journey with you. Like when we recently did, ⁓ Mark County received a grant so we can do some ⁓ physical health screenings. ⁓ And, it ⁓ a scary adventure. we had a good technician who, treated us all well and ⁓ but at the same time, it was scary because because of the unknown, ⁓ are we going to find out that you know, we have, ⁓ an artery filled of McDonald's french fries or something, When we did that, we all shared our experience and ⁓ it's it us all grow and ⁓ through your leadership, you encourage us something's ⁓ something's wrong to address it, whereas, ⁓ people tend to, hey, that's your stuff, keep keep that to yourself, you know what I mean? we tend to ⁓ include each other, which, you know, isn't scary. It makes it, you know, somewhat laughable because, you know, when we get those results, a bunch of us had the same, bullshit and ⁓ it ⁓ kind of funny. It was laughable. Yeah, you bring up a good point because, you are raised, you know, don't talk about this, keep this private, keep whatever. And I think my vulnerability makes my mom crazy. But I just don't care, because I really do feel like if I say it, people will feel more comfortable and we'll be a close knit, community within the agency. ⁓ if I had ⁓ two months to live, I don't know if I'd say that until, you know, I had a week left. ⁓ Yeah, no, we don't. ⁓ would be on a plane to Vegas and ⁓ jumping of planes doing the Tim McGraw like you would die. Yeah, stuff. So ⁓ we definitely know. And brings up a good point of, ⁓ some of the stuff ⁓ that we have to look at and to talk about. for me, you know, one of medical ⁓ journeys is I have ⁓ super low testosterone. I was, exhausted all the time, and just no energy. in the morning, I'd be like, ⁓ I just want to stay in bed this, just gonna lay here for another hour, ⁓ and no, no drive to to really move or do anything. ⁓ And come to find out I had the testosterone level of like a 75 year old man. ⁓ And, how address it. So ⁓ I hope it's working. I it's working. I don't have those ⁓ days know, wanting to stay in bed or, just exhausted all the time. But, we learn from from each other and ⁓ hopefully ⁓ we can share ⁓ couple years ⁓ were at the Chiefs of Police ⁓ Association annual training in and I ended up meeting ⁓ a doctor kind of involved wellness sat in on his ⁓ seminar and ⁓ had a conversation with and he ⁓ maybe a couple years older than me. ⁓ And like, every police officer over 40 should have their testosterone check. and if low ⁓ It just doesn't help you. He's like ⁓ I've Steered them into getting them some help and them back on track ⁓ I spoke to ⁓ another doctor when I went to ⁓ a retreat ⁓ and he said the same thing. officers at 40 years old need to ⁓ have a urologist, make sure they're getting checked. That's beyond what you're getting from your primary care physician and ⁓ and the basic stuff. Like get out there and do ⁓ in-depth blood tests to find out where all that lands. ⁓ And that's been a game changer for me. ⁓ It's shocking sometimes see, hey, this is up, this is down. What do I need to do to fix it? But when you do and you get the right people, Like I joke now, I have a team of doctors, like I'm somebody special, but it feels good to have that. You can get a second opinion or just, they just get to know you and they get to, and be selective if you get, beyond your primary care, be selective on who you get. We're lucky here in Maine. We've got some awesome people that are, I think are just trustworthy, give good advice, not everything is like pharmaceutical, right? A lot of supplements and things like that. We've been really lucky. And once again though, through those we've ended up getting ⁓ this team approach to counsel us on, ⁓ this ⁓ is what you need. I So, yeah. Hey, can I, I'm to switch gears on here a little bit. I'm actually going to go back. Yeah. now we're talking about testosterone. We've talked about the testing there that we did through the county grant, right? Which was kind of like a, like a stress test. ⁓ in ultrasound, right? Some parts of our organs, our heart, you know? ⁓ And the one part I wanna talk about is, you you talk about vulnerability. Like you're pretty vulnerable when you're going through that testing. I had to go, ⁓ I had to get on a treadmill ⁓ and, they these little pads on you, right? ⁓ And when I take my shirt off, I'm like a fucking Yeti, right? It's like Sasquatch. So I got these ladies in there and they're like, you couldn't, you know, shave a little patch. And I was like, you nobody told me. And I was, so now I'm sorry and I'm embarrassed. And I thought that, maybe somebody would tranquilize me if they saw me running on the freaking, on the treadmill there. But that's not even the worst part. I get into the ultrasound part ⁓ and get to the part where they're like, Hey, drop, you know, drop your pants. They do a nice job. They cover you up or whatever. So, know, my pants are at my ankles. ⁓ I panced her at my ankles. They've got my, my grapes and everything. They're all covered up so I felt I felt okay. And the guy that you had mentioned before, he's in there, with the the wand and he's just looking around and ⁓ it's it's just feels weird. it's a weird to be in. But you know what a weirder position is when the guy is there, he's kind of going around and he's like, excuse me, sir. We have an intern. that would like to take an opportunity to do this. She hasn't done this very often. I was like, okay, so we're field training now and we're gonna use my nuts. And what do you say at that moment? Like I wanted in my head to say, no, absolutely not. This is already a horrible situation, but I'm like, ⁓ of course, please bring the whole class in. Yeah, now it's a party. Now it's a party. And then she was kind of like, she was new, so whatever, no big deal. I know it's medical. It's not, you know, I get my, you know, my head out of my ass here with this stuff, but it was just it was a little bit. It was a little embarrassing for me. But then she was a little bit too, like dainty. Like you got to get in there, I guess, So I appreciated the fact that she. I haven't heard this part of the story. Yeah, it was just. No, she got it. ⁓ yeah, she got in there. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. When it was time for her, I should have said no. ⁓ I was like, this is for science. Exactly. ⁓ yeah. And then so then, yeah, that was the ultrasound thing and whatever. it was it was horrible. ⁓ I there like with my tail between my legs running out of there. But it was I would do it again because it was important. was, thankfully, I know now that everything going on down there is OK. ⁓ But ⁓ just of those funny things, that ⁓ of course that like that's happens to me. You know, I always tell my wife, there's a, if there's something that veers from like the regular, it's going to be more difficult for me or I'm going to get the curve ball in it. And it always happens. So that was just a little example of that. ⁓ thanks for sharing that. ⁓ That's fantastic. Actually, it's funny because I when I ⁓ I think I sent you a text and I was like, hey, apparently this week is first responder wellness week, which I think is a I don't know if that's a real thing it's good to have a week to focus on this and, know, maybe it'll get some people, especially some leaders out there, ⁓ clicking on a few articles and learning a little bit more about what they can do. if we're just a small little department in Maine doing a little something, right. Then I think others can, others ⁓ move. in that direction as well. Right. And it's good too that, we have ⁓ gotten to that ⁓ space know, it's being recognized, going back to your about your prior chief, ⁓ checking in on you and, ⁓ you know, he was doing wellness then it just wasn't defined. Yeah. know, and I think ⁓ having it defined now is ⁓ helpful for a lot of agencies, we're all struggling with ⁓ recruiting retention and this is ⁓ secret sauce, you will, it's that special, thing that, ⁓ we we, do different than even places around us. I am excited to see, you know, other agencies kind of stepping up to the plate ⁓ and wanting to part of the conversation. I was ⁓ really surprised at your ⁓ presentation you did, at regional training center. seems like a month ago now, we had ⁓ another season chief that showed up and I was just impressed that he took the time on a Friday evening to come and ⁓ listen ⁓ maybe, learn something hey, what can I do for my people? ⁓ I agree with you. that was awesome, see that chief there. And I think as time goes, we'll see it grow. has to, it's gonna have to. chiefs come and go and whoever they put in those positions is gonna be ⁓ dictated a little bit by their thoughts on wellness and taking care of their people. ⁓ if not, we're gonna see the younger generation coming up that is already kind of this, you know? And so ⁓ it's gotta be a, a good balance there, I think. I think for us, we're just gonna, next? we're both those types of individuals that ⁓ aren't ⁓ happy status quo. just always wanna just be better. You what mean? ⁓ Be better men, be better husbands, fathers, ⁓ bosses. ⁓ just better people in general, what is your passion? ⁓ Inside the wellness space, like in policing, like is there something that you you gravitate to more? Yeah, for me, thanks. ⁓ for asking or bringing that up is, know, for me, ⁓ the peer support, you know, I've kind of always done that, ⁓ even as a supervisor of like Hey, after we had something, let's sit and talk about it. Let's, you know, get three or four people together and just say, hey, we went to a gun call, someone wanted to shoot us or, know, whatever. ⁓ But we would always sit afterwards and and process that ⁓ rather than just, keeping it and, or seeing if, we had an officer involved shooting somewhere. ⁓ We were always reaching out and saying, hey, what can we do help? And ⁓ of the things ⁓ you mentioned earlier ⁓ retreat you went to in California, I really would love to do something. ⁓ Obviously, ⁓ with peer team, we can't send everyone to California, ⁓ but maybe we do something similar here, and ⁓ just ⁓ help heal some of healers, just make sure that we're checking on those people. ⁓ We some folks that have done a lot of debriefs the past couple of years and ⁓ there times when I just worry about them, ⁓ are we doing for them? I think, yeah, I think I had asked you that a while ago. was like, ⁓ you're on the support team, like ⁓ what are your requirements? Right. But like, what are the requirements for somebody who's on the peer support team to go talk to somebody? And there should be, know, just like a, ⁓ a sex crimes investigator, these these extra steps that really should be taken and they should be, part a responsibility of being on that team. ⁓ I know we've talked about that before and and it's ⁓ and it's interesting, but hopefully, that's not somewhere where we're dropping the ball. And I would expect, and maybe I'm wrong, is like, whoever's on the peer support, I better not hear, I don't need that. you do a lot of work with peer support team, and a lot times I'm like, I think I've even said to you, ⁓ do you really wanna do this one? Like, why do you wanna do this? ⁓ And, ⁓ and I let you go because I trust that, know, ⁓ and we do talk, and I think part of that, even if, obviously, you know, I don't mean like we're sharing, the secret, I think we're very respectful to what that process is, but we do talk and like, ⁓ I need them, need a minute, right? Sometimes it's not always chief. Do you need to mean that sometimes I'm like, Ronnie, come in here. Right. And, ⁓ and that's, ⁓ such a thing, right. back and forth. So simple. Right. but really be healing. And honestly, even if you're talking about something completely different, it's just you need that space. You and I have seen it with other officers you could see the release valve. But we're not even talking, we're just sharing space together and trying to laugh. And we know we're sitting in some uncomfort, but all that is in a weird way healing. I know I'm not saying it the way I wanna say this, but. ⁓ Hopefully it makes sense to somebody out there that can interpret what the hell I'm saying. ⁓ Yep, yep. But ⁓ one of the great things about this podcast though is it's getting the message out there. ⁓ And I love when you say, yeah, our listeners, ⁓ two out there listening, you know? ⁓ But ⁓ with that. You've got some analytics, right? ⁓ Where is your our numbers with with the cat? Yeah, ⁓ haven't checked recently, ⁓ The numbers are good, great, better than, know, like I joke, but I thought. I would go. To ⁓ 10 episodes and then from there, just if this was really worth the energy if I was enjoying it. this this actually is a commitment, and then now it's just another thing that's on my mind that I don't want to let the two listeners down if they're out there ⁓ we're not breaking any records here with these numbers for sure, but I'm learning. I don't know how to market this. It's that part's a little uncomfortable for me, but ⁓ I think I'm just gonna let it happen organically. And the more that we have guests on, which I mentioned last week, I think we've like three or four guests, ready to go. you know, their people are going to listen, and then I think we'll expand that way, but this is ⁓ This is what it's for. Like you said, mean, I last time I said, ⁓ for reflection and connection, that's what this is about. if we can get, some people to support us here and there, awesome, but this is more about, ⁓ getting the words out, saying those things that are maybe uncomfortable that people are thinking that we've all thought, you know, today's conversation. I think there was a few things that are bangers that, people aren't really talking about testosterone. ⁓ They're probably thinking it. They probably know it. And now they know they've got a couple of people that they can reach out to, know, if they're comfortable reaching out to you, like, hey, let's talk more about that. I guess that's the connection and that's the ⁓ mission, of this whole thing. it's been, everything seen in analytics tells me to keep going. ⁓ And this is episode 11. we just broke the 10 mark. ⁓ And sometimes, you know, like last week just me. People get busy, things happen. Billy jumps on most of the time, but I also wanna mix it up a little bit. I'd love to get to the point where get a few people in that room and really have a conversation. they're all important, they all got something to say. All got something to share. So, we'll keep it going. I'm not ready to stop it yet. Yeah, keep foot on the gas pedal. ⁓ Yeah. You I talk to a lot of people and they... get a lot out of it. So that's that's part of the mission. Yep. Keep sharing the message. ⁓ with that Ron, any last words or anything? Will we wrap it up here? No, just thanks to the two listeners out there. We appreciate you. thanks for having me and let me chime here on my my thoughts and, know, my journey ⁓ down this path of wellness and. just everybody out there, just stay safe. absolutely, man. Thanks for chatting. I'm sure we'll well, you'll be on here ⁓ plenty of times in the So like Ronnie said, stay safe.